Tuesday, April 10, 2012
Good luck finding a better church...
Sometimes people change churches. Even where I serve as an elder, they leave... and they come. Troop transfer in the Lord's army. Sometimes it is a good thing. But I often hear why they left, or why they came to us, and I really want to say... Good luck finding a church like that. Or, just wait till you get to know us better. Or, I hate to tell you but they really aren't going to be what you are looking for either.
And I do need to acknowledge that I live in Abilene so there are almost unlimited options to choose from so it is easier to just decide to change to a different congregation. Not sure I hear some of these things in churches in China. Or the Middle East.
Here are a few of the things I've heard that make me wonder. By the way, these are not specific to SH. I have heard at least some of them at almost every church I have ever been around, including at one time or another almost every church in Abilene. In fact, most of these complaints will eventually be true at the next church they go to. And the next. And the next. So maybe the problem they are identifying is not so much the church...
"I'm sick of church politics." Me too. So was Jesus. It was a real problem in the New Testament too. As long as people are involved, church politics will be around. But here's good news for you: change churches and it will take a few months or years to realize politics are there too. With any luck, you can avoid all church politics by moving every 2 or 3 years. Of course, I sometimes think that what this means is "I can't get everyone to do what I want so I'll say I'm sick of church politics".
"I'm not getting fed". If you are a new Christian, or a non-believer visiting, this one seriously bothers me. But if you have been a Christian for 20 or 30 years, shouldn't you be able to feed yourself? And even feed others? I do realize some of this is a product of the fact that we use one primary voice for the preaching in most of our churches. And it's hard for one person to connect with everyone. So I assume your solution is to just read Scripture for 30 minutes each assembly. Or find a preacher who "feeds you" and just follow them around anytime they move. Or is this code for "I don't like the preacher and he's not as entertaining as the last guy -- or the visiting guy -- and boy I wish I hadn't been so critical of the last one..." And this one is really tough in a small church without the resources to hire one of the top ten preachers of our day. So maybe you ought to preach...
"All you do is ask for money." Well, actually God asks for it. Oddly enough, I have never heard this from a generous giver. So does it really mean "I am not going to give, so leave me alone." Or, "I know I signed a pledge but I'm not going to fulfill it so leave me alone." I hate to break it to you, but every church I know has obligations that require financial support. But maybe you can find one not doing much or that has a substantial balance in the bank. So they won't bother you about money.
"All you do is change everything." Or, "you are afraid to change anything." It is hard to find a church that does everything just like you want it done. I think you are looking for a church that has around -- well, one member. You. Nothing, or everything, will change/not change just like you want. Just don't ever add another member or you may hear this one directed at you.
OK. This was written with much sarcasm. But I do wonder about people who are always looking for a different church. I know there are sometimes very legitimate reasons to change churches. I'll do my next post about when it may be the right thing to do to change. But most of the time it is because things are not done the way we want. So we criticize, complain, try to get things done the way we want. And when it fails, we leave. And then, after some time passes, we realize the new church is full of church politics, not feeding us, asking for money, or changing/not changing too much or not enough. So we start looking all over again.
So I have to ask: when I am unhappy with my church, does that say more about the church... or me?
And I do need to acknowledge that I live in Abilene so there are almost unlimited options to choose from so it is easier to just decide to change to a different congregation. Not sure I hear some of these things in churches in China. Or the Middle East.
Here are a few of the things I've heard that make me wonder. By the way, these are not specific to SH. I have heard at least some of them at almost every church I have ever been around, including at one time or another almost every church in Abilene. In fact, most of these complaints will eventually be true at the next church they go to. And the next. And the next. So maybe the problem they are identifying is not so much the church...
"I'm sick of church politics." Me too. So was Jesus. It was a real problem in the New Testament too. As long as people are involved, church politics will be around. But here's good news for you: change churches and it will take a few months or years to realize politics are there too. With any luck, you can avoid all church politics by moving every 2 or 3 years. Of course, I sometimes think that what this means is "I can't get everyone to do what I want so I'll say I'm sick of church politics".
"I'm not getting fed". If you are a new Christian, or a non-believer visiting, this one seriously bothers me. But if you have been a Christian for 20 or 30 years, shouldn't you be able to feed yourself? And even feed others? I do realize some of this is a product of the fact that we use one primary voice for the preaching in most of our churches. And it's hard for one person to connect with everyone. So I assume your solution is to just read Scripture for 30 minutes each assembly. Or find a preacher who "feeds you" and just follow them around anytime they move. Or is this code for "I don't like the preacher and he's not as entertaining as the last guy -- or the visiting guy -- and boy I wish I hadn't been so critical of the last one..." And this one is really tough in a small church without the resources to hire one of the top ten preachers of our day. So maybe you ought to preach...
"All you do is ask for money." Well, actually God asks for it. Oddly enough, I have never heard this from a generous giver. So does it really mean "I am not going to give, so leave me alone." Or, "I know I signed a pledge but I'm not going to fulfill it so leave me alone." I hate to break it to you, but every church I know has obligations that require financial support. But maybe you can find one not doing much or that has a substantial balance in the bank. So they won't bother you about money.
"All you do is change everything." Or, "you are afraid to change anything." It is hard to find a church that does everything just like you want it done. I think you are looking for a church that has around -- well, one member. You. Nothing, or everything, will change/not change just like you want. Just don't ever add another member or you may hear this one directed at you.
OK. This was written with much sarcasm. But I do wonder about people who are always looking for a different church. I know there are sometimes very legitimate reasons to change churches. I'll do my next post about when it may be the right thing to do to change. But most of the time it is because things are not done the way we want. So we criticize, complain, try to get things done the way we want. And when it fails, we leave. And then, after some time passes, we realize the new church is full of church politics, not feeding us, asking for money, or changing/not changing too much or not enough. So we start looking all over again.
So I have to ask: when I am unhappy with my church, does that say more about the church... or me?
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Concerning the point about not being fed:
For most of my life I've not had reason to question the 20-30 minute sermon that dominates our assemblies.
Lecture lecture lecture. One of the worst educational formats there is.
But then I noticed two things in the New Testament:
1) In the HCSB version of Acts 20, verse 7, Paul "spoke to" the disciples for a long time, and bored a kid to death. After he resurrected the young man, he want back in, and this time, he changed his method in that he "conversed". I seriously doubt you could make a valid case for pedagogical methods from this wording, but it did catch my attention.
2) In 1 Cor 14 we see some hints of the Corinthian assemblies. It doesn't seem as if it's dominated by one man speaking for a long time, but rather by everyone participating in some form: some have songs to sing to the church maybe? some have prophecies to speak. Etc.
Paul says, "When you come together, each one has a [contribution]" (v. 26.
Later he says, "...if the whole church assembles together and all are speaking... . ... But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all."
"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should evaluate."
"For you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may learn and everyone may be encouraged."
This sounds to me like everyone is involved, not a free-for-all, but decently and in order, taking turns.
Where's the taking turns in our churches today?
It's fine for one man to speak for a long time on occasion, as Paul did (with the realization that it might bore people to death), but it seems that always using this method is both unbalanced and unproductive.
Maybe we should do something like pass the mic around and ask, "What has God shown you or helped you with this past week, or what do you need His help with this coming week? Keep it short, please."
I don't know; not very practical maybe, especially in large groups, but I think it's worth thinking about.
For most of my life I've not had reason to question the 20-30 minute sermon that dominates our assemblies.
Lecture lecture lecture. One of the worst educational formats there is.
But then I noticed two things in the New Testament:
1) In the HCSB version of Acts 20, verse 7, Paul "spoke to" the disciples for a long time, and bored a kid to death. After he resurrected the young man, he want back in, and this time, he changed his method in that he "conversed". I seriously doubt you could make a valid case for pedagogical methods from this wording, but it did catch my attention.
2) In 1 Cor 14 we see some hints of the Corinthian assemblies. It doesn't seem as if it's dominated by one man speaking for a long time, but rather by everyone participating in some form: some have songs to sing to the church maybe? some have prophecies to speak. Etc.
Paul says, "When you come together, each one has a [contribution]" (v. 26.
Later he says, "...if the whole church assembles together and all are speaking... . ... But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all."
"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should evaluate."
"For you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may learn and everyone may be encouraged."
This sounds to me like everyone is involved, not a free-for-all, but decently and in order, taking turns.
Where's the taking turns in our churches today?
It's fine for one man to speak for a long time on occasion, as Paul did (with the realization that it might bore people to death), but it seems that always using this method is both unbalanced and unproductive.
Maybe we should do something like pass the mic around and ask, "What has God shown you or helped you with this past week, or what do you need His help with this coming week? Keep it short, please."
I don't know; not very practical maybe, especially in large groups, but I think it's worth thinking about.
Great thought Kent. They are some traditions where every member is expected to share what God puts on their heart.
We are so "professional staff" oriented that we hardly let anyone say anything uless they are a pro.
I do believe that our current model has to change. Not the content, but how it is delivered.
So yes, I am a huge proponant of multiple voices.
Let me know if come across some places where this is working.
We are so "professional staff" oriented that we hardly let anyone say anything uless they are a pro.
I do believe that our current model has to change. Not the content, but how it is delivered.
So yes, I am a huge proponant of multiple voices.
Let me know if come across some places where this is working.
Steve-
I stumbled upon your blog today. I've read it once or twice before so I hesitate to comment since I'm not a loyal reader. However, I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective if I may.
As a minister who travels around to a lot of churches within Churches of Christ, I have seen a LOT of different issues out there. Each church functions differently while having some of the same dysfunctions. There are certain parts of our DNA (like certain traditions etc) that many in younger generations find troubling or pointless. As we are a group of people who are supposed to be about restoration, we should continue to ask how we can be restored to the true function of the Bride of Christ...weighing scripture against the rules of men.
I have often found myself frustrated inside Churches of Christ for these very reasons. It is why, for several years, we found solace at Fellowship Bible Church in Nashville. But, as you said, there are issues everywhere! Fellowship had their fair share too...just different baggage than Churches of Christ.
As we considered a move back into the heritage we love so much there were some things that were really important to us. I wondered if it was possible to find a place that embraced the heart of the gospel and a passion for Jesus while also embracing a freedom in the Spirit and a commitment to the core things. Basically keeping the main things the main things...and not majoring in the minors as so many churches in our fellowship love to do. I admit, I was cynical that a place like that even existed. As we opened ourselves to possibilities, I began to be even more frustrated by what I saw.
The excuses you've listed here are quite common reasons for looking for a different place. However, I wonder if, for some, it might be more about spiritual discernment than flippantly jumping ship as you seem to suggest here. Although it always frustrated me when people would come in as negative nellies looking for something wrong and at the first sign of it were ready to bail. You are absolutely right that they will most definitely find those things in other places.
(comments continued below)
I stumbled upon your blog today. I've read it once or twice before so I hesitate to comment since I'm not a loyal reader. However, I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective if I may.
As a minister who travels around to a lot of churches within Churches of Christ, I have seen a LOT of different issues out there. Each church functions differently while having some of the same dysfunctions. There are certain parts of our DNA (like certain traditions etc) that many in younger generations find troubling or pointless. As we are a group of people who are supposed to be about restoration, we should continue to ask how we can be restored to the true function of the Bride of Christ...weighing scripture against the rules of men.
I have often found myself frustrated inside Churches of Christ for these very reasons. It is why, for several years, we found solace at Fellowship Bible Church in Nashville. But, as you said, there are issues everywhere! Fellowship had their fair share too...just different baggage than Churches of Christ.
As we considered a move back into the heritage we love so much there were some things that were really important to us. I wondered if it was possible to find a place that embraced the heart of the gospel and a passion for Jesus while also embracing a freedom in the Spirit and a commitment to the core things. Basically keeping the main things the main things...and not majoring in the minors as so many churches in our fellowship love to do. I admit, I was cynical that a place like that even existed. As we opened ourselves to possibilities, I began to be even more frustrated by what I saw.
The excuses you've listed here are quite common reasons for looking for a different place. However, I wonder if, for some, it might be more about spiritual discernment than flippantly jumping ship as you seem to suggest here. Although it always frustrated me when people would come in as negative nellies looking for something wrong and at the first sign of it were ready to bail. You are absolutely right that they will most definitely find those things in other places.
(comments continued below)
My recommendation for those reading your blog is to really listen to this message and instead of making decisions on little things you might disagree with here or there, look to the leadership. Look to the eldership. Is it a leadership you trust? Are they defined by freedom or fear? Are their spiritual decisions reactions made out of fear? Are they bathed in prayer? Are they more interested in the Kingdom of God than the rules of tradition? Do they exhibit the fruits of the Spirit? Are they punitive in nature or grace based? Because, you can be guaranteed that however the leadership is made up will most definitely trickle down to the church and where there is dissension or discord, it will impact the rest of the church.
One of my other big things for our kids was to have them in a place where they knew that their voice and spiritual wisdom would be valued and nurtured--no matter what their gender.
I had almost given into my cynicism that a place like that within our fellowship was virtually impossible to find and that I must quietly settle for less. However, what I have found is that it DOES exist! Serving along side elders who are visionaries, who are grace based, who are marked by prayerful spirits and who aren't afraid to move forward making difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions for the sake of the Kingdom...these places exist. I have found mine at Highland. The baggage is there...but it tends to look more like carry-on luggage and less like large trunks.
Basically, people are people and the church is full of 'em. They're messy. So am I. God sent Jesus right into the mess. He made decisions that made the religious people of his day very angry...because they were more interested in law than the Living Word. So...like Jesus, we're called into the mess. We're called to bring a message of restoration to our world. Let it begin with us and may we be truly open to WHATEVER that looks like. It's going to be messy. But when we put fear-based religion aside and embrace courage in following Christ, we are in for the ride of our lives!
Thanks for letting me share. Blessings to you.
Brandon Scott Thomas
One of my other big things for our kids was to have them in a place where they knew that their voice and spiritual wisdom would be valued and nurtured--no matter what their gender.
I had almost given into my cynicism that a place like that within our fellowship was virtually impossible to find and that I must quietly settle for less. However, what I have found is that it DOES exist! Serving along side elders who are visionaries, who are grace based, who are marked by prayerful spirits and who aren't afraid to move forward making difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions for the sake of the Kingdom...these places exist. I have found mine at Highland. The baggage is there...but it tends to look more like carry-on luggage and less like large trunks.
Basically, people are people and the church is full of 'em. They're messy. So am I. God sent Jesus right into the mess. He made decisions that made the religious people of his day very angry...because they were more interested in law than the Living Word. So...like Jesus, we're called into the mess. We're called to bring a message of restoration to our world. Let it begin with us and may we be truly open to WHATEVER that looks like. It's going to be messy. But when we put fear-based religion aside and embrace courage in following Christ, we are in for the ride of our lives!
Thanks for letting me share. Blessings to you.
Brandon Scott Thomas
Hey Brandon. Thanks for the thoughts. You hit on two points that I actually talked about some in yesterday's blog, tho you may have stated them better. Talk to the leaders. And your kid's spiritual growth trumps everything.
I enjoy hearing other's thoughts on the things I throw out. Or maybe it's throw up. :)
You are in a place that really seems to fit you and you are involved with some great people.
Blessings on your family and ministry. Love you brother.
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I enjoy hearing other's thoughts on the things I throw out. Or maybe it's throw up. :)
You are in a place that really seems to fit you and you are involved with some great people.
Blessings on your family and ministry. Love you brother.
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